今日は，所変わって#ggi@FreeNode.net．
5時間分のログだったりする． :P
[Today's post comes from #ggi@FreeNode.net.
It's 5h log. :P]
MooZ（敬称略）現る．
[MooZ comes.]
3/28 01:59:44 *
MooZ (i=MooZ@FR-CHA-C4-01-02-087231004236.chello.fr) has joined #ggi
3/28 02:01:40 neiljp-work
moooooz
3/28 02:01:46 MooZ
Neil!
何だ何だ？ :D
[Hehe, what does it start? :D]
3/28 02:02:07 neiljp-work
MooZ: am I misremembering, or where you involved in setting up the wiki?
3/28 02:02:14 neiljp-work
s/where/were/
3/28 02:02:28 MooZ
uh
3/28 02:02:33 MooZ
erm
3/28 02:02:41 MooZ
i don't remember
3/28 02:02:42 neiljp-work
sounds like no ;)
3/28 02:02:55 MooZ
timlarson_ set one years ago
3/28 02:02:59 MooZ
but it got spammed :(
3/28 02:03:03 neiljp-work
ah
3/28 02:03:18 neiljp-work
modern ones have user accounts, admin, etc
3/28 02:03:37 neiljp-work
merging with a cms, I guess
3/28 02:04:26 MooZ
i used dokuwiki and it's great and easy to install
3/28 02:04:43 neiljp-work
I use MoinMoin
3/28 02:04:51 neiljp-work
its python-tastic! ;)
3/28 02:05:01 MooZ
:)
3/28 02:05:36 MooZ
it'ld be great to link user auth with sf one
3/28 02:05:48 MooZ
dunno if sf has some ldap or whatever for user auth
3/28 02:06:53 neiljp-work
well there was an interesting wiki idea being developed
by someone on debian-planet,
which was based on svn or similar
3/28 02:07:06 neiljp-work
so much like we do here, you could check-in pages
3/28 02:07:17 neiljp-work
on that note, of course, its not much improvement over what we have now
3/28 02:07:54 neiljp-work
I suppose I'm just keen to see more published to-do lists,
who is doing what, etc.
3/28 02:08:12 *
neiljp-work shrugs
TODOは重要ですね．
自分の場合，増える一方だったりしますが． :P
[Yep, to list TODO is too important for me, too.
But, my TODO has only enlarging process. :P]
3/28 02:08:38 hiyuh
to_do_list++
3/28 02:09:00 neiljp-work
hiyuh: XGGI working yet?
すかさず突っこんで来るneiljp（敬称略）．
[In a split second, neiljp pokes me.]
3/28 02:09:38 hiyuh
XGGI seems work here. But, I have no jp106 keymap :P
3/28 02:09:51 MooZ
neiljp, well if you have python binding for cvs,
maybe you could hack to commit pages
3/28 02:10:11 neiljp-work
MooZ: sounds...dangerous!
3/28 02:10:22 MooZ
why?
3/28 02:10:44 neiljp-work
hang on, what did you mean to connect the python to?
3/28 02:11:06 neiljp-work
hiyuh: but normal X works?
3/28 02:11:43 neiljp-work
hiyuh: have you discussed this before?
3/28 02:12:16 MooZ
neiljp-work, yeah you commit using your log/pass all via https
3/28 02:12:18 hiyuh
neiljp-work: yeah, Xorg, XGGI, XDirectFB work on same my PowerBook,
not chrooted env. :9
3/28 02:12:38 neiljp-work
hiyuh: any speed comparison? :)
3/28 02:12:51 neiljp-work
hiyuh: although that depends on the backends (targets) I guess...
3/28 02:13:26 neiljp-work
MooZ: you mean tie it to sf auth db, and then to a wiki?
3/28 02:13:38 MooZ
neiljp, yes
やっぱXサーバは早くないとダメだよね．
でも，ちゃんとテスト出来る程設定してない．．． :(
[So, the important status of X server is its speed, as you know.
But, I'm not OK to test it because of it's not fully prepared... :(]
3/28 02:14:19 hiyuh
neiljp-work: hmm, I've not test its speed.
because of I'm not sure to test its speed.
to use glxgears or so?
3/28 02:15:25 neiljp-work
hiyuh: glxgears goes to X glx/dri extension afaik,
which I doubt will work with xggi!
3/28 02:16:44 hiyuh
neiljp-work: heh. then, what can I use for its test? :9
そして，
jp106のキーマップファイルを作らなければならない自体に追い込まれる． :P
因みに，bughunter（敬称略）はプロジェクトリーダーっぽい人．
[Well, should I make jpp106 keymap file? :P
FYI, bughunter looks like one of the project leads.]
3/28 02:17:02 bughunter
hiyuh: Do you need some guidance on how to create a jp106 keymap ?
3/28 02:19:12 hiyuh
bughunter: maybe, I need it.
but to include how-to-create-your-keymap.txt in XGGI tarball is best, IMHO.
3/28 02:21:41 neiljp-work
I'm assuming this is a libgii issue rather than an x config issue?
3/28 02:22:13 bughunter
hiyuh: In each xggimap.* file is a line
'See the xmodmap(1) manpage for syntax explanation.'
3/28 02:22:22 bughunter
hiyuh: So first step is to read this.
3/28 02:23:17 bughunter
hiyuh: Second step is to figure out the keycode numbers to associate
with which symbol
3/28 02:23:41 bughunter
hiyuh: xev tells you this when you press a key
3/28 02:24:16 bughunter
hiyuh: Third step is to repeat second step until you're done and happy.
ふむふむ，地道な作業ですな．．．
[Hmm, sounds like step-by-step.]
3/28 02:24:26 neiljp-work
bughunter: so this is a standard X configuration?
if so, then hiyuh probably has a keymap file for his current X server, no?
3/28 02:24:39 neiljp-work
s/configuration/configuration issue/
3/28 02:24:41 bughunter
hiyuh: You don't need to restart XGGI every time you modify your keymap file
3/28 02:25:38 bughunter
hiyuh: You can apply your modified keymap file with 'xmodmap '
3/28 02:26:12
xev probably returns different keys in xggi
compared to . Or?
3/28 02:32:52 hiyuh
neiljp-work: yeah, I have the jp106 keymap file for standard X server, IIRC.
So, in Xorg or XDirectFB, my PowerBook's keyboard works fine.
3/28 02:38:34 neiljp-work
hiyuh: but the same file doesn't work for xggi?
3/28 02:42:30 hiyuh
neiljp-work: hmm, I've not test it.
I ran XGGI by this wrapper.
http://rafb.net/paste/results/6dRzwy86.html
3/28 02:42:36 hiyuh
maybe, somly to do it may be sane way, though.
3/28 02:42:48 hiyuh
s/somly/simply/
うむむ，typo． :S
[Umm, I've typo-ed. :S]
3/28 02:52:40 neiljp-work
hiyuh: I don't currently know enough about xmodmap,
or X generally, to know how keymaps work
- one of the 'standard' keymaps is all I use for (non-xggi) X
3/28 02:52:58 *
neiljp-work admits quietly to not testing xggi
and waits for the ear-bashing from bughunter
やはりリーダーは強いな． :)
[Um, any leads must be tough. :)]
3/28 02:59:52 hiyuh
neiljp-work: hmm, maybe, I use it for jp106 keymap symbols with standerd X.
it looks like not for xmodmap.
http://rafb.net/paste/results/gxXfFN70.html
3/28 03:00:58 hiyuh
neiljp-work: it's provided by xkbdata as one of Xorg stuffs, IIRC.
3/28 03:01:11 neiljp-work
ah, hang on
3/28 03:04:26 neiljp-work
hiyuh: xorg.conf or whatever normally specifies the keymap (right?),
but xggi doesn't have that
- somehow xggi must find which keymap to load,
so can you use some option to specify that keymap file you have already?
3/28 03:04:38 neiljp-work
hiyuh: I don't have time to investigate in detail,
just chat in between other things :)
3/28 03:09:41 hiyuh
neiljp-work: yeah, my xorg.conf specfies jp106 keymap.
please see line 87.
it's the option for jp106 symbols, IIRC.
http://rafb.net/paste/results/VOso4A24.html
3/28 03:11:47 neiljp-work
hiyuh: yes, so how does xggi specify the keymap? :)
I don't have the xggi docs to hand, so that's over to you :)
3/28 03:11:54 neiljp-work
(that or else bughunter said it above ^^)
3/28 03:14:32 hiyuh
yeah, btw, startxggi.sh in my wrapper which I pasted
is just renamed startx.sh which is bandled in XGGI tarball.
and, I've skimed it.
IIRC, it executes just xmodmap with xggimap.base or so.
3/28 03:16:42 hiyuh
so, anyway, I need to create my jp106 keymap file for XGGI
as a xmodmap file like bughunter said. :)
3/28 03:18:16 hiyuh
Otherwise, DEL/BS key does not work. :P
そう，一番困るのがDEL/BSキーが効かない事なのです． :(
[So, my mainly PITA is DEL/BS key doesn't work. :(]
3/28 03:22:48 neiljp-work
too much to hope that a keymap file is an xmodmap file? ;)
3/28 03:23:28 neiljp-work
hiyuh: maybe xmodmap -pke in a working xserver should generate your xmodmap file?
3/28 03:23:37 neiljp-work
that is, if those files are different
3/28 03:25:15 hiyuh
ZOMG, it seems genarate my xmodmap file! :9
なんてこった，いきなり自動生成かよ？！ o.O
[WTF, it looks like a automatically generating magic?! o.O]
3/28 03:25:34 neiljp-work
ah man pages, aren't they great? :)
3/28 03:26:10 hiyuh
exactly. ;)
3/28 03:26:23 hiyuh
man_pages++
3/28 03:26:45 neiljp-work
of course, I'm intrigued by whether xggi could just use standard keymap files
like xorg/xf
やはり，man pagesは重要ですねー． :9
[Exactly, man pages are TOO informative. :9]
3/28 03:27:16 neiljp-work
I'll build xggi sometime,
as opposed to now when I'm supposed to be working on a presentation for tomorrow...
3/28 03:30:13 hiyuh
heh
3/28 03:31:30 hiyuh
So, XGGI is fully prepare for me.
3/28 03:32:07 neiljp-work
it works ok?
3/28 03:32:28 neiljp-work
now you can benchmark ;)
3/28 03:32:43 neiljp-work
that or test display-multi and other fun :)
3/28 03:33:06 neiljp-work
or whatever else you find fun for that matter...
3/28 03:34:56 hiyuh
neiljp-work: could be, then I'll switch to XGGI. bbiab ;)
と言う事で，XGGIに切替える為に一度IRCを離れる．
色々，ムニャムニャするが．．．
[Then, I've left the channel.
And tweak my XGGI wrapper or so...]
3/28 04:31:45 hiyuh
hmm, doesn't work :(
3/28 04:40:51 *
hiyuh is testing his key{board,code} with xev...
3/28 04:48:49 hiyuh
btw, XGGI can be built with mesa?
動かん．．． :(
仕方無いので，チョコチョコやる事にする． :S
あと，XGGI+Mesaについて訊いておきたかったので，質問．
[But, unfortunately, it doesn't work. :(
And then, I've asked about XGGI+Mesa status.]
3/28 05:10:37 neiljp
hiyuh: what does/doesn't work?
3/28 05:11:48 bughunter
hiyuh: It may, it may not.
It doesn't make a difference since XGGI has no GLX extension yet
3/28 05:26:31 hiyuh
neiljp: I've generated it by xmodmap -pke like you said.
and then, I've used it with/without xggimap.base by xmodmap
(or, it requres some tweaks?).
but some keys get more messy. (e.g. return key does not work or so.)
3/28 05:30:02 hiyuh
bughunter: ok, thanks.
if so, to build with mesa makes only compiling time longer, ATM.
it's nonsense, IMHO.
3/28 05:32:54 neiljp
hiyuh: stupid question, but does xggi work in x? :)
3/28 05:33:01 neiljp
hiyuh: ie. all the keys, etc
3/28 05:33:14 neiljp
hiyuh: that is, assuming you're running xggi only on fbdev atm
3/28 05:33:23 neiljp
(from your script)
なぬ？ o.O
Xnestか？ 8-)
[Eh? o.O
Well, it looks like Xnest？ 8-)]
3/28 05:41:37 hiyuh
neiljp: well, you mean XGGI can run in other X?
3/28 05:42:06 neiljp
hiyuh: I assume so, if you set the GGI targets correctly
3/28 05:42:19 bughunter
hiyuh: yes, it can. This way you can debug XGGI with ddd, for example.
3/28 05:43:06 hiyuh
heh, sounds like Xnest.
3/28 05:43:43 bughunter
yeah, but can you in turn run Xnest in Xnest ?
3/28 05:43:46 neiljp
of course if the bug is in linux-kbd
or whatever input you have on the console with fbdev,
then it won't help debugging that
3/28 05:43:57 bughunter
you can run XGGI in XGGI in XGGI in Xorg, for example
3/28 05:44:21 bughunter
so who cares about Xnest? ;-)
3/28 05:44:27 hiyuh
hehe
そこまで言うか，流石． ;)
で，新しい設定をチェックして頂く． :9
[Hehe, looks like so aggresive. ;)
Then, I'd like to check my new configurations. :9]
3/28 05:52:30 hiyuh
So, like GGI_DEFMOD="640x480[C24]" GGI_DISPLAY="display-x:-noinput"?
3/28 05:52:40 bughunter
GGI_DEFMODE
3/28 05:52:53 hiyuh
bah, sorry. :(
3/28 05:55:14 bughunter
and what do you use as input?
3/28 05:58:18 hiyuh
I've set it as GGI_INPUT="(input-linux-mouse:imps2,/dev/input/mice):(input-linux-kbd)"
3/28 05:58:27 bughunter
ok
3/28 05:58:37 bughunter
hmm...
3/28 05:59:02 bughunter
I think, this GGI_INPUT is ok when you want to run XGGI on fbdev, for example
3/28 05:59:33 bughunter
but to run XGGI on X, it is better to use the native display-x input
3/28 06:00:02 bughunter
that means, unset GGI_INPUT and set GGI_DISPLAY="display-x"
3/28 06:00:30 hiyuh
yes, sir. :9
3/28 06:09:24 hiyuh
bughunter: so, like this? http://rafb.net/paste/results/FzPqqX29.html
3/28 06:10:58 neiljp
talking about nesting xggi made me think of a problem I had recently
- my x server crashed :(
3/28 06:11:50 hiyuh
oh, well... it's horrible. :P
3/28 06:12:08 bughunter
hiyuh: what is startxggi.sh ?
3/28 06:12:14 neiljp
could xggi be used as a proxy?
so clients connect to xggi, and it then connects to a 'real' x server?
3/28 06:12:57 bughunter
.oO(XGGI on XVNC)
3/28 06:13:55 neiljp
ideally xclient<->xggi<->xorg, but x connections don't like breakages, right?
ie. if xorg dies, xggi dies too
3/28 06:14:21 neiljp
so you need the ability to disconnect the chain between xggi and xorg
3/28 06:14:24 bughunter
hiyuh: you need to tell XGGI somewhere which display to use
- i.e. if x.org runs on :0, then XGGI must run on :1, etc.
3/28 06:15:11 bughunter
hiyuh: and then your x apps must connect to display :1 to run within XGGI.
3/28 06:16:10 neiljp
xvnc is one way to disconnect the chain,
ie. I guess: xclient<->xggi<->xvnc<===> xvncclient<->xorg
3/28 06:16:14 bughunter
neiljp: You want Xserver-balancing ? :)
3/28 06:16:52 bughunter
xvncclient<->xggi<->fbdev :)
3/28 06:17:00 neiljp
when I was involved in fresco, and chatting to other projects too,
there was the idea of being able to move your display to
for example a mobile device
3/28 06:17:11 neiljp
bughunter: sure, but your apps keep running
3/28 06:18:03 neiljp
of course, xvnc is effectively a server in there too,
which isn't really needed if you don't want to use vnc protocol
3/28 06:18:26 neiljp
if you only care about local, it would be useful to have xclient<->xggi<->memory<->xorg
3/28 06:19:23 neiljp
then we effectively delegate xorg to what it 'should' be...
a graphics driver display framework ;)
3/28 06:19:51 neiljp
ie. xggi handles xlib and xorg handles rendering
3/28 06:21:02 neiljp
the problem of course is handling the rendering requests
so that xorg rendering is accelerated via the xggi/memory requests
3/28 06:21:43 *
neiljp wonders if bughunter is whipping up some clever app in the background ;)
3/28 06:22:22 neiljp
anyhow I've emptied my brain of that, so time for me to get back to some ironing :|
3/28 06:22:40 hiyuh
bughunter: startxggi.sh is equal to startx.sh (I've renamed it)
which was one of xggi-2.0.0.src.tar.gz stuffs.
3/28 06:27:17 bughunter
hiyuh: ok. Then pass XGGI's display number as argument to startxggi.sh
3/28 06:27:30 bughunter
hiyuh: /usr/bin/startxggi.sh :1 (for example)
3/28 06:27:46 bughunter
hiyuh: It is recommended to use the next free display number
3/28 06:28:07 bughunter
hiyuh: (see my comments above)
3/28 06:28:19 hiyuh
okay, I'll try that.
と言う事で，またムニャる． :S
[Then, Munya-Mnya. :S]
3/28 06:33:17 neiljp
bughunter: I suppose that what I am after is disconnect/reconnect operation
for ggi targets
3/28 06:33:30 neiljp
or at least display-x
3/28 06:36:25 bughunter
or more generic: let GGI apps attach/detach
to display-targets at runtime very similar to screen
3/28 06:36:35 neiljp
a hypothetical situation: GGI_DISPLAY=x ggi_app;
[ggi_app connects to DISPLAY using display-x]
[send a message to ggi_app, the ggi part of it, GGI_DISPLAY=x:screen=:1]
[ggi unloads x target, reloads x target with DISPLAY=:1]
3/28 06:36:37 bughunter
neiljp: Is that right?
3/28 06:37:04 neiljp
perhaps
3/28 06:37:05 neiljp
yes
3/28 06:37:37 neiljp
of course, then you need to handle input too...
3/28 06:37:51 neiljp
but that's my crazy idea for the day/week/month :)
3/28 06:37:51 bughunter
yup
3/28 06:37:57 neiljp
;)
3/28 06:38:31 bughunter
.oO(We should add a 'Idea of the day' to our GGI homepage)
3/28 06:38:53 bughunter
or perhaps 'Quote of the day'
3/28 06:39:59 bughunter
something like 'Blackholes are where god divided by zero'
3/28 06:40:04 bughunter
:)
3/28 06:40:44 neiljp
atm you could do: xclient<->xggi<->memory, hacky_app(memory)<->xorg
3/28 06:40:55 neiljp
which would be like a shortcut vnc
3/28 06:41:07 bughunter
another possible 'Quote of the day':
3/28 06:41:08 bughunter
"By filing this bug you have questioned my family honor. Prepare to die!"
3/28 06:41:08 bughunter
-- Klingon programming - rule 8
3/28 06:41:13 bughunter
:)
3/28 06:41:15 neiljp
or ggiteleserver would work
3/28 06:41:22 neiljp
hmm
3/28 06:41:30 neiljp
methinks bughunter isn't taking my idea seriously ;)
3/28 06:42:07 bughunter
well for now we have to bring -current back into working state
3/28 06:42:21 bughunter
then we can think on what's next
3/28 06:44:29 bughunter
"A bus station is where a bus stops.
3/28 06:44:29 bughunter
A train station is where a train stops.
3/28 06:44:29 bughunter
Now, on my desk, I have a work station..."
3/28 06:45:32 hiyuh
lol
マジメに話しているのかと思ったら，何をやっとるんだ，アンタ等． :D
[IMAO, ya must be funny folks. :D]
あ，因みにまだ動いてませんよ，XGGI on Xは． :P
分かった事は，${DISPLAY}をキチンと設定しないとダメっぽいと言う事だけ．
[Well, XGGI on X does not run by my configurations, ATM. :P
All I can say about it is:
It must be set acceptable ${DISPLAY} variable.
Otherwise, it doesn't work.]
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